Argumentative Penguin
3 min readMay 18, 2022

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I'm going to reply quickly otherwise we're in danger of jointly writing a book.

1. Yes, we're living in different media worlds - but that's a big part of why everyone should respectfully disagree with each other.

2. I would suggest the centre ground is evidenced by the Keira Bell case, that's why the case bounced back and forth and was overturned (rightly in my opinion).

3. This piece of work by Lisa Littman (2021), highlights 100 people who have detransitioned. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34665380/

That seems like a significant number of people... and those are only the people who answered the survey.

4. I would suggest on this evidential basis we don't have the transitioning pathway right (though it is right for some people) - that needs to be discussed because we owe a duty of care to all people trans/cis and any people confused between the two.

5. Putting forward that 'lets tread carefully' position is sometimes considered transphobic.

6. I didn't see the Lily Cade bit, but she seems like a fairly unhinged individual... but as you pointed out, there are unhinged individuals on both sides. They represent a minority stake in their groups but disproportionately control the conversation. Taking the microphone off both sets of people will help.

7. I think there's a middle ground position on the trans-man that sparked this conversation. I think it was badly handled by everyone but this conversation stemmed from it, so it's not all bad.

8. Authoritarian isn't necessarily a political position - it's a communcition style. The opposite of what we're doing here. The 'I'm right and you're wrong' with no recourse to debate. Trans people cannot enact an authoritarian regime.... though I believe the progressive and identity politics left could (in the fullness of time) and the LGBTQ+ community could be part of that.

9. With regards to the law. The law is what binds democratic people together. A better law doesn't stop ideological division, but it does prevent overthrow. We saw that here with Thatcher's Section 28 and it's overthrow. We went from that position to LGBTQ+ marriage enacted lawfully by a Conservative Government (some of whom were in both Thatcher and Cameron's Government). People move gradually left, but only when led there by due process rather than ideologically frogmarched there. If you refuse to acknowledge legal process you have anarchy... and anarchy will disproportionately affect minority groups. If you can find a more friendly system than democracy for minority groups anywhere in the world then I'm happy to discuss it. Autocracy, theocracy, military dictatorship.... there is no better place to be than a democracy if you are an LGBTQ+ minority. That doesn't mean it's perfect, but it is a flawed framework from which progress can be strived for. I can see why your faith in the system might be broken - but mine isn't. Dissent is not oppression and democracy is just a codified 500 year old set of ongoing arguments with silly rules.

And I'm hopeful the time of the tories will pass (hopefully) and we'll find a better way through without fracturing the left. It takes time. I don't think we're sliding back into fascism - I think your media landscape suggests this, and interactions with people like me, whilst difficult and trying, are more indicative of where the future is headed. I'm argumentative, but I'd argue I'm not oppressive.

I know you're not going to reply, because a quiet life as a writer, scientist and artist is preferable to fighting a penguin... but this has been respectful and enjoyable. Anyone who has got this far reading our back and forth has both positions laid out for them in full. That's great. It's what the world needs. We don't need to agree on everything, we simply have to show our working.

If you ever find yourself in Penguin-land (London) then hit me up and we'll do coffee. I expect we'd get on very well in person. The debates would be excellent. You have a nice day too. :o)

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Argumentative Penguin
Argumentative Penguin

Written by Argumentative Penguin

Playwright. Screenwriter. Penguin. Fan of rationalism and polite discourse. Find me causing chaos in the comments. Contact: argumentativepenguin@outlook.com

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